www.astrocafe.hk

2012-01-12 分割至 (出第一代 LVI 自動導星器)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=460#p13884

funoooo 寫:SiuSiu,

我已過來人身份話你知。 LVI 一定無後悔。
建議你買定支 laser，找 Guide 星有幫助！

我那枝導星鏡有效焦距是350mm，放個25mm目鏡上去是14x，跟現時標準的9x50尋星鏡視場小不了多小，其實找顆拍攝天區附近的亮星很容易的。我的做法是用25mm找完導星放置視場中央後，便換上導星頭，不會用本身那個等焦目鏡的，一來導星大多會在中心點正負10個像素附近，二來導星鏡本身已調焦，不用再靠等焦目鏡了。

你這個"過來人"很有意思，因為的確是用過很多不同型號導星器後，以LVI拍得精美照片得出的結果，最重要是你在這方面並非技藝高超，亦即一般使用者都可複製你的成功經驗，所以你的意見是可靠的。

反觀過去數年圈內刮起一陣怪風，有幾位特別喜歡製造噪音的，今天會不斷呼籲人家"一步到位"買XXX，但自己郤沒用過，到自己用起來有問題，明天又靜悄悄的換另一品牌，每年都在換但始終找不到合適的。說到底其實對器材不懂，也不知道自己要想什麼，唯要找一大群人去買同樣的東西壯胆，但離場時不會跟他的從眾解釋或道歉一句。XXX可以是赤道儀，可以是攝星鏡，可以是相機，也可以是導星器，過去兩三年發生太多次了。最特別是喜歡製造噪音的往往喜歡指人家是騙子，但郤從沒撫心自問，自己的言行誤導了多少人。

我不會請教一個不斷去"蒲"的人如何建立幸褔家庭，正如若你想享受天文而非玩器材的，應看看誰在穏定地好自己的器材並造出成績，才好向他請教。這個至少是我給自己的指標。你看我的5D Mark II、HEQ5 Pro赤道儀、APM 105 f6.2 APO、203 f7 APO、幾個私人天文台、Paramount ME、LVI導星器、目鏡.... 都是買回來一直用到現在，以Paramount為例，08年買回來先參興了很多次路邊天文，之後用來拍了不少照片，現在又移到西藏發揚光大，在這情況下推介Paramount，我能面對自己的良心，也對很起人家。白鷺湖天文台、STARLAB等也是同樣情況。

己所不欲勿施於人，我給自己的方向是賣自己也在用的東西。曾有一位校長問我，為他們建好天文台/天文館後會否以什麼身份佔用他們的資源，因為他不時看見的現象。我回覆很清晰：我為他們建造的，自己也在用，器材是同品牌但檔次更高，我無需要用他們的資源，但很樂意透過自己的使用心得去助幫他們發展。

社長 寫:反觀過去數年圈內刮起一陣怪風，有幾位特別喜歡製造噪音的，今天會不斷呼籲人家"一步到位"買XXX，但自己郤沒用過，到自己用起來有問題，明天又靜悄悄的換另一品牌，每年都在換但始終找不到合適的。說到底其實對器材不懂，也不知道自己要想什麼，唯要找一大群人去買同樣的東西壯胆，但離場時不會跟他的從眾解釋或道歉一句。XXX可以是赤道儀，可以是攝星鏡，可以是相機，也可以是導星器，過去兩三年發生太多次了。最特別是喜歡製造噪音的往往喜歡指人家是騙子，但郤從沒撫心自問，自己的言行誤導了多少人。

Changing equipment is understandable especially for newbie. I had such stage before. It is part of the 'learning tax' that most people need to pay. If my memory is correct, a person in another forum upgraded from HEQ5+LVI to Takahashi EM11+SG4+Epsilon E160 astrograph some time ago. However, I am still waiting for his great photos that will undoubtedly come from such a powerful scope. (At least that is the impression I get from that forum as many people praised this scope. Whether they have used it before is another question.) Also it seems that he is considering changing to PHD guiding.

I had used epsilon 180 and I know how tedious it is to collimate the scope. May be he has problem on that front. But it is just a wild guess.

I don't know much about equipment, and so I tend to only comment on things that I had used before. I certainly would not encourage people to buy things that I had no direct experience of using. If I do, I would tell them frankly that I had no experience on the equipment, and my judgement is only based on what I read on web.

社長 寫:曾有一位校長問我，為他們建好天文台/天文館後會否以什麼身份佔用他們的資源，因為他不時看見的現象。我回覆很清晰：我為他們建造的，自己也在用，器材是同品牌但檔次更高，我無需要用他們的資源，但很樂意透過自己的使用心得去助幫他們發展。

It is interesting that I share the same philosophy. My school has LS100T but I have LS152T. My school has a 12 inch dobs but I have an 18 inch dobs. My school has DMK21 but I have DMK21, 31 and 41.

Some years ago, I heard that a very expensive Takahashi telescope in a school (bought with the money from Quality Educational Fund) was in some guy's home for quite some time.

David 寫:Changing equipment is understandable especially for newbie. I had such stage before. It is part of the 'learning tax' that most people need to pay.

從不懂：
http://2fwww.hkastroforum.net/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

到嘗試：
http://www.hkastroforum.net/viewtopic.p ... 465#235465

這個過程是每個人必經階段，過程也要謙卑及少批評些自己不懂的事情。

David 寫:If my memory is correct, a person in another forum upgraded from HEQ5+LVI to Takahashi EM11+SG4+Epsilon E160 astrograph some time ago. However, I am still waiting for his great photos that will undoubtedly come from such a powerful scope. (At least that is the impression I get from that forum as many people praised this scope. Whether they have used it before is another question.) Also it seems that he is considering changing to PHD guiding.

I had used epsilon 180 and I know how tedious it is to collimate the scope. May be he has problem on that front. But it is just a wild guess.

他不時發表道德文章，針砭時弊，愛之深恨之切的痛批年青一代不踏實，相信也會律己以嚴，以身作側，很快安頓下來用自己推薦的器材拍個痛快。

David 寫:I don't know much about equipment, and so I tend to only comment on things that I had used before. I certainly would not encourage people to buy things that I had no direct experience of using. If I do, I would tell them frankly that I had no experience on the equipment, and my judgement is only based on what I read on web.

我間中路過廣東道的玉石市場，都有一個疑問，究竟珠寶玉石的價值是如何厘定的? 一般珠寶玉石商人的推銷取向是如何的? 我先假設跟另一端廟街的算命檔運作方式有分別。

推廣/銷售天文儀器是有必要以事實為根據，因為那都是有實效的工具。能否導星、像場是否平整、星點測試下的成像、赤道儀是否有5"PV精度，都有客觀比較標準。否則不要說"呃你十年八年"，很多時一兩年下來便信用破產，淪為笑柄。我給自己的標準是要長期見實效，這不單適用於買賣小器材，也要在從事中大型基建時實踐，因為基建一運作起來隨時有十年廿年卅年以上的壽命。

viewforum.php?f=12

David 寫:Some years ago, I heard that a very expensive Takahashi telescope in a school (bought with the money from Quality Educational Fund) was in some guy's home for quite some time.

我終於明白用APM幫學校建天文台的問題了，因為搬回家太礙眼(雖然我自己有Paramount ME)

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86

另外似乎你也在曲線讚自己清高，你有過同一型號的鏡，是自己付錢買和學生一起用，沒叫學校買

David 寫:If my memory is correct

男性更年期4大症狀

1.情緒和認知障礙

2.性功能減退

3.生理機能症狀

4.血管舒縮症狀

David 要諒解，我的文采不好，不能用英語或粵語又或者兩者混雜書寫，只懂用書面漢語，但我的確很喜歡新聞記者張文采

David 寫:If my memory is correct, a person in another forum upgraded from HEQ5+LVI to Takahashi EM11+SG4+Epsilon E160 astrograph some time ago.

Turns out that my memory was indeed wrong, and the person concerned only bought the green HEQ5Pro (the so-called 'liar version'). Sorry about this mistake. I have always subconsciously thought about HEQ5Pro+LVI as one great package rather than two separate equipment. It was just what I needed when I got it a few years ago for around $8000 only because I wanted a simple-to-use autoguiding setup on a budget. And I got some reasonable results from it immediately:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=387

Just read Tony Hallas' review of TGSP mount and AstroTrac in the Feb 2012 issue of Astronomy. There is a phrase that is suitable for LVI also: It gets the job done, but it has its own personality. It sometimes surprises me to hear who went to Savio's office to buy LVI. I have always thought that it is for beginners, but actually some LVI customers are experts in deep sky photography and some have used other more expensive systems before like SG4.

As I have always believed, different equipment have their pros and cons, and suit different customers. It is naïve to dismiss or praise a particular system completely, especially if one hasn't used it before. There will always be people who strongly dislike the need for finding bright guide star when using LVI, and thus prefer other systems. There will also be people who find LVI's low cost, ease of use and ability to diagnose problems very good, and thus prefer LVI over other products.

David 寫:

David 寫:If my memory is correct, a person in another forum upgraded from HEQ5+LVI to Takahashi EM11+SG4+Epsilon E160 astrograph some time ago.

Turns out that my memory was indeed wrong, and the person concerned only bought the green HEQ5Pro (the so-called 'liar version'). Sorry about this mistake. I have always subconsciously thought about HEQ5Pro+LVI as one great package rather than two separate equipment. It was just what I needed when I got it a few years ago for around $8000 only because I wanted a simple-to-use autoguiding setup on a budget. And I got some reasonable results from it immediately:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=387

正如上文所說，始終我不是賣珠寶玉石，天文儀器一定要講實效的，價值/價格也有一定客觀評定標準，當一台$4980的HEQ5 Pro配合$3000的LVI I都能拍出精確照片，加起來才等於一套SG4。而我個人也在用同樣的設備，所以沒有說服力要人家花騙子版HEQ5 Pro的10倍價格去買一套連GOTO也要靠電腦、負重量又低些的EM11，另外還要花$8000去買SG4才能實現導星，有問題時連看XY軸實時導星曲線，診斷一下問題來源也無從入手。噢不...... 經RS232串口便可連到電腦上了，我相信陰那山、合歡山、西藏高原上，仍是有好些人喜歡在郊外拿著手提電腦這樣做的

David 寫:Just read Tony Hallas' review of TGSP mount and AstroTrac in the Feb 2012 issue of Astronomy. There is a phrase that is suitable for LVI also: It gets the job done, but it has its own personality. It sometimes surprises me to hear who went to Savio's office to buy LVI. I have always thought that it is for beginners, but actually some LVI customers are experts in deep sky photography and some have used other more expensive systems before like SG4.

但Tony Hallas也提到，用那兩款赤道儀要人肉dithering。若配合雙軸驅赤道儀及低能的LVI II，便可以跟單反相機連動，實現自動Dithering。當然行為藝術博士會示範他的高能導星器，如何配合單反做dithering。

巴菲特說，潮退時才會看到誰沒穿泳褲。

好了，兩年下來，我呼籲一下，那兩位愛好者能否直正用好自己的SG4? 都一步到位用上"頂級品牌"赤道儀了 (甚至有些是5" PV，比Paramount啟用PEC前還要好，按理不用導星的，而且是2.8光圈，我在西藏用f4光圈配ISO6400最長也只能曝用150秒)，另外SG4的兩條"線"不外是12v電源(電器店賣20元?)及六芯電話線(水電維修店造一絛約10元?)，能否walk the talk拍出funoooo或chuen lee這初試導星的愛好者也能拍出的精確度? 我看不出有需要因噎廢食換其他導星系統的。另外最好幫手遏止一下近期轉讓SG4的風潮，並請觀星勝地的同好閉下咀少批評一下SG4，否則會讓不明真相的追隨者很有挫敗感的。

希特拉說謊言要說100次才成，但從赤道儀、導星器、攝星鏡... 每次推廣週期就是一年多，就今天的我打倒昨天的我，的確欠缺觀星人應有的堅持。

David 寫:As I have always believed, different equipment have their pros and cons, and suit different customers. It is naïve to dismiss or praise a particular system completely, especially if one hasn't used it before. There will always be people who strongly dislike the need for finding bright guide star when using LVI, and thus prefer other systems. There will also be people who find LVI's low cost, ease of use and ability to diagnose problems very good, and thus prefer LVI over other products.

我作為LVI、Skywatcher、SBIG的代理，其實並無任商業動機去貶低及抬高任何一款導星器 (尤其SG4比STi, LVI, Synguider要貴)，我的確有好一個數量的Skywatcher Synguider導星器現貨在火炭工作室，但你沒看我推介這款導星器，而SBIG的導星器，我一直推薦用STi，自己也在西藏看到很理想的表現，但SG4一開始我就說看到不少不能解決的小問題。始終我不是賣珠寶玉石，我推薦的天文儀器賣出去沒實效，會影響聲譽的。

從商的人吃四方的飯，按理最好是面目糢糊立場不明，見人講人話，見鬼講鬼話。幸好星河科研社零售外也有進出口、基建及教育工作。所以我很幸運，能夠選擇性格鮮明一點，推薦自己真正認同的好產品。

說到見鬼講鬼話，因為那兩位愛好者肯定自己的騙子版HEQ5 Pro及鬼魅版Equinox 80非並出自人處，今天請教專家，說可能他們打開自己錢包時經常看到冥通幣.... 從中醫角度看，男人到了更年期，命門火弱，需要強力補腎，有機會減少幻覺，清朝紀曉嵐的《閱微草堂筆記》也提過

註：個人文筆不佳，書面語僅能應付溝通，有機會會把值得學習的帖子轉貼高登討論區，並註明是出自哪學府哪位教授，讓那群年青網友學習如何承五四遺風，開白話文先河，中英口語混雜，真正的"博士的文采"。

又來罵戰…..

每次罵戰，這個水靜河飛的網站點擊次數便上升，你又有機會介紹你的事業和產品。不過你的顧客也很悲慘，買完你的東西要收埋自己用，不能公開用。曾經有人想買APM的鏡，於是PM我，問對APM鏡的意見。我的回應基本上是，你一買這好鏡，便要有心理準備要忍受大量閒言閒語。結果，他用現金投了票。

社長 寫:相信也會律己以嚴，以身作側，很快安頓下來用自己推薦的器材拍個痛快。

等了差不多一年，相信很快會用好的了。

Recently I saw the two threads in astrocafe & hkastrofrum. The discussions now a bit off in the sense there are not technical or helping others to understand the pros & cons of different products. If the coin is one sided, the situation is simple! As an LVI user, I know its pros & cons. It is simple, handy, notebook free and the most important of all is that it gets the work done in just a fraction of cost! The con is it's low sensitivity. I don't care about I need to find a bright star of magnitude 2 or brighter with a 50mm guide scope. According to other SG4 users, and I in fact seen before, that SG4 virtually can find guide stars with a small scope in anywhere in the sky. Well all these are not important, but whether can I make good images.
As matter of fact, SG4 got good 2nd hand market. And in fact recently there are some SG4s in the 2nd hand market. But I know that a few of these users, they are switched to LVI. But they keep it silent, because of the atmosphere. But they used their money to give the vote. On the other hand, there are not many LVI in the 2nd hand markets. My understanding is that LVI users tend to keep their LVI. And I know some LVI user stopped using LVI and switch to PHD. But they still keep LVI for emergency using. It is because LVI is too simple & beginners can handle it without any trouble. In contrast, PHD (with a sensitive guide cam) or SG4 users, need to ask other experienced users to get it work. One can easily notice it in forums. So sensitivity & simplicity, expensive & cheap, one can make their own choices. But one needs to know what he or she is talking about especially when criticizing other products, which he or she had never used. At the end, photos speak for themselves. To me, I prefer cheap solution for auto-guider & mount, but premier optics. The most convincing evidence is that produce good photos with the instrument you are promoting or using. Bad mouthing others instrument is not the way. Think about using a top class E-180 with cooled CCD (a small 8300 chips) and a 5" PV mount, and resize the image to less than 1M pixels. But the stars are still obviously elongated at such scale. How convincing it is? Don't you know what other people think? Or u just don't care what other people think. If that is the case, enjoy the instrument yourself, instead of big mouth always.

willis 寫:As matter of fact, SG4 got good 2nd hand market. And in fact recently there are some SG4s in the 2nd hand market. But I know that a few of these users, they are switched to LVI.

其實那愛好者剛發帖的兩條連結中的一條，那位水平很高的攝星人正是放掉SG4買入LVI II

另一連結中那位，最近上來買DBK21AU618時，也說出了對SG4的心底話。

一位是明辨是非的中學教師，另一位曾自稱是MK仔有街頭智慧的小商人，他們應該不容易被蒙的。

不過我無謂指名道姓，你自己求證了，反正都呼之欲出了

我沒有否定過SG4是一個很好的炒賣/轉售/套現工具 (funoooo..... )，但不只一個人，包括資深攝星者都賣了SG4轉用LVI，已說明LVI有高於SG4的價值。

再次，我是賣天文儀器，是講實效的，不能胡言亂語，不能妖言惑眾，不能把價格及價值混淆，不知道這觀念對賣珠寶玉石的是否適用

David 寫:不過你的顧客也很悲慘

當年有一位在舊論壇罵得很兇的年青人，沒幾年後遞履歷表來求職，面見時我很客氣問他，會否跟自己的價值觀有衝突.... 最後我給了他一個工作機會

David 寫:便要有心理準備要忍受大量閒言閒語。結果，他用現金投了票。

那裡容不容許播天與地的? This forum is dying, you know?

社長 寫:當年有一位在舊論壇罵得很兇的年青人，沒幾年後遞履歷表來求職，面見時我很客氣問他，會否跟自己的價值觀有衝突.... 最後我給了他一個工作機會

公開罵你罵到狗血淋頭，之後後悔再客客氣氣地上你公司買東西，買完又要收埋用，要睇人面色，我都聽你講過不少次......你的顧客真的很悲慘。

所以你的顧客有很多都是頗獨立和低調地玩天文的同好，不用盲目跟任何大隊或任何意見 (這也包括你的意見)。可是，對不少人來說，天文也同時是重要社交活動，特別是初學者，不跟大隊叫同一口號，便生存不了。我的建議是，不要跟車太貼。

David 寫:又來罵戰…..

每次罵戰，這個水靜河飛的網站點擊次數便上升，你又有機會介紹你的事業和產品。

我的業務只屬Organic growth，所以一年一次罵戰這種頻率夠了，否則沒有太多新資訊，每次重複同樣東西會很悶的。

那愛好者引述，由潘少先生於09年初開的帖，其實對我有很大幫助，讓APM在整個市場的知名度大幅提升。從前APM的市場集中在高端科研大鏡，包括在中國的多台一米鏡、台灣最大的鹿林天文台一米鏡、香港由我引入的0.6米卡反(現在麥里浩夫人渡假村)等，也有多台國外歐洲等最大至2米的望遠鏡。但自從09年初由潘少先生發起戰罵後，APM的大APO也正式走入尋常百姓家了，下圖的三台望遠鏡 ( viewtopic.php?f=9&t=220 )，包括北京私人的254APO、香港的228APO都是，最特別的是，就在潘少先生罵得最兇的時候，我收到跟他同一城市(深圳)的兩張訂單，首先是203 f7 APO，然後是304 f7.5 APO。

我很相信小罵大幫忙這道理，沒有罵戰，可能到今天很多人也不會花時間去瞭解APM (或LVI或騙子版HEQ5 Pro)的優秀之處。當然之後的馬來西亞全國最大APM 228APO、同一時間的台灣的APM 228 APO、早一點我經拍檔銷到日本的APM 254 APO都不在話下了。詳情看此：

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說回香港，過去一年我沒聽過本地出現多少台全新的TOA130，而APM 130/780郤一枝一枝的賣出去，我無謂把用戶拉下水了，免得他們到PTC時遭到白眼，但初步估計僅去年售出的APM 130已比全港的高橋FS128, TOA130總量要多。我骨子裡不相信這一切是偶然，雖然本質上我不喜歡罵戰，但得承認，沒有潘少先生就沒有今天在我市場內APM大APO遍地開花的局面。

所以那罵戰帖內容極之艱深苦澀，但簡單總結一下，那帖就是一條導火線，開帖後兩年，我在大江南北東南亞台灣日本都獲得顧客們真金白銀的投信任票支持，艱道市場是錯的？

另外我也得承認潘少先生是一位很好的顧客，我賣給他的DMK21及STL11000M至今拍出多少好片，真正善用了器材，我相信若Epsilon 160、Epsilon 180、EM11、SG4在他手上不會落得如斯田地，雖然這四樣東西他沒有一樣。

但有一點我得道歉，那絶對是我的錯誤，原來那帖大家都不同基礎上討論，直至到最近意大利著名光學設計師Dr Massimo Riccardi提醒我才恍然大悟，原來日本高橋一直發表的Spot diagram是RMS值，而Thomas Back發表的是全值，若把當年TMB運算出來的Spot diagram以RMS編印，星點便會銳得多了：

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跑題一點，雖然從商的人對"騙子"這叫法沒有什麼大不了，但出自另一位新移民到香港來，白手興家創出一番事業的商人應非泛泛之輩的口，則有點怪怪的，那種感覺總有點像純情處男白皮豬一樣.... 應該怎麼說呢.... 噢 yes, 若他經常帶外國的客人到內地"玩"，我會先入為主假設他不會是純遊山玩水茗茶下棋欣賞字畫的。

David 寫:

社長 寫:相信也會律己以嚴，以身作側，很快安頓下來用自己推薦的器材拍個痛快。

等了差不多一年，相信很快會用好的了。

同意，一定要用好自己的EM11、SG4、高能導星器、Epsilon 160、Epsilon 180、5"PV 赤道儀，拍些可歌可泣的照片出來。

社長 寫:同意，一定要用好自己的EM11、SG4、高能導星器、Epsilon 160、Epsilon 180、5"PV 赤道儀，拍些可歌可泣的照片出來。

你們有個共通點，就是要做好圖像處理，否則便可歌可泣不了。

David 寫:

社長 寫:同意，一定要用好自己的EM11、SG4、高能導星器、Epsilon 160、Epsilon 180、5"PV 赤道儀，拍些可歌可泣的照片出來。

你們有個共通點，就是要做好圖像處理，否則便可歌可泣不了。

也不能完全這樣說，賣護膚品最好是素顏，化了妝便有點心虛了。

因為我是賣望遠鏡，不是賣圖像處理軟件，所出張原圖便可以。

同樣，若你全力推薦高橋，用Epsilon 180, 160拍張全片幅未經處理原圖，100%比例放上來讓大家看看便可以。

David 寫:

社長 寫:當年有一位在舊論壇罵得很兇的年青人，沒幾年後遞履歷表來求職，面見時我很客氣問他，會否跟自己的價值觀有衝突.... 最後我給了他一個工作機會

公開罵你罵到狗血淋頭，之後後悔再客客氣氣地上你公司買東西，買完又要收埋用，要睇人面色，我都聽你講過不少次......你的顧客真的很悲慘。

所以你的顧客有很多都是頗獨立和低調地玩天文的同好，不用盲目跟任何大隊或任何意見 (這也包括你的意見)。可是，對不少人來說，天文也同時是重要社交活動，特別是初學者，不跟大隊叫同一口號，便生存不了。我的建議是，不要跟車太貼。

那你當年如何突破心理障礙，跟Mr Square為伍的?

社長 寫:所以一年一次罵戰這種頻率夠了，否則沒有太多新資訊，每次重複同樣東西會很悶的。

一年一次.......
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